SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Infidelity is truly the gift that keeps on giving. The scars never totally heal, and the gut reactions and threat vector awareness never go away.

13 years after my glorious D from my ex, and having spent most of that with a wonderful, kind, emotially healthy, caring and supportive woman who is herself a serial-cheating survivor (BS), I'm a little bit crushed of what I'm seeing. In short, there had been a few "microtriggers" for me over the past couple of years regarding one of her work colleagues - a younger, attractive, very popular sales rep on her team who lives in a different city, but with whom she interacts with weekly in remote meetings and occasionally in-person events. It first registered with me when we were on vacation for a week and I noticed texts from him popping up in the middle of week (texts, not Teams messages in a work application...and dude, she's on vacation). And she answered him at least a couple of times. I didn't say anything; it passed, I forgot about it.

Later one of his kids (he's divorced) was playing in a sports tournament an hour away and she basically dropped what she was doing to attend in the cold and rain...not something I've seen her do for other people on her team. That, and a few other comments she's made about him that just stuck in my mind. But here's the thing: as a long-suffering BS before we met, she is smart, aware, and sensitive to all the things we all talk about here. She's always been so deliberately transparent with me, usually making sure I wasn't uncomfortable with any interactions with another man that might be construed as inappropriate (there were very few). She's always been better than beyond reproach, and I love her for it, and always try to mirror the same.

Today my theory is that maybe none of that means shit when the right dreamy guy comes along. Perhaps people can convince themselves they're entitled to anything. Based on some very careful and neurotic analysis of the details below, I don't believe she has cheated. I've been around here long enough to know that can't be ruled out, but the key indicators of that are still missing.

Anyway...last week I came across her old phone in a drawer, and suddenly I was catapulted back to that cold and dark place so many of us have lived in, and before I even thought much about it, I'd plugged in it and logged in with her password with the very specific intent of finding a text message thread with this guy. I was not disappointed; the messages stopped about six months ago when she replaced the phone, but there was enough.

Bottom line: nothing explicit, no smoking guns, but hundreds of texts in the thread, almost daily. The majority were purely work related, but there were many times where things got uncomfortably and unprofessionally familiar, and I was reading texts from someone I positively didn't recognize -- not the sweet, affirming, positive woman who uplifts others, rarely curses, and is never overfamiliar with men...no, with this guy, back and forth, it was f-bombs every other sentence, disparaging and joking about the appearance and intelligence of other colleagues and clients, and bitching about periodically being out of patience all people in her life (and teasing him that as her work BFF< he had to listen to it). And there was more: comments about how female clients must all swoon over him, how the team shirts they ordered were too small for everyone but he needs to wear his to "give the girls what they want", and persistent sexual innuendo introduced almost exclusively by her. Worse: telling him that the "fat assed uglies" in a client office "put him in the spank bank (laughing emojis)". Never heard her use such a term, but here she is telling a work colleague that women think about him when they masturbate. Gee, what a terribly subtle signal to send to a guy who is clearly used to attention from women.

Crude banter: her giving "fuck you (smiley face)" responses to his teasing. She doesn't talk like this to anyone.. Calling each other "work bestie" "BFF", and each other's "ride or die" in work matters. We aren't terribly active on social media, but are each prominent in each other's content on Facebook. I've noticed her Instagram account, however, has been kind of sanitized of my presence. She almost never posts pictures of herself alone, but a few have popped up. He follows her account and likes her posts.

So...here we are. The gut feeling was right, and she absolutely has a crush on, and probably an infatuation with, a colleague 15 years younger. Boundaries for shit, overtly signaling her attraction, and more subtly her interest and availability/apparent lack of serious involvement with any SO. Just before the phone was replaced and the texts stop, they were getting ready to attend a national sales meeting...she mentioned meeting up for a drink their first night, and getting tickets to local music or event. I presumed this would mean with other people on the team...but seeing this person I know act like a cougar in heat, maybe I'm wrong.

Don't know what to do with all this. I honestly don't feel I can admit to snooping on an old phone without fallout. Normally, I'd be confident she would ultimately understand that I acted on the same suspicions we've both buried deep in our pasts. But in the Groundhog Day I feel I'm living as a former BS, I know that all bets are off, and someone caught and called out in the midst of an embarrassing infatuation is more likely to rug sweep, resent, and not stop what they're doing.

Well, if you read all that, thanks. This sucks. I don't want to be back.

[This message edited by jagged at 4:53 PM, Tuesday, August 26th]

Have you sat down with her and discussed your concerns? EAs can be slippery slopes. They may start innocently but they slip into inappropriate territory.

You need to communicate with her. It’s been 13 years - hopefully you feel like you can discuss this.

Just before the phone was replaced and the texts stop, they were getting ready to attend a national sales meeting...she mentioned meeting up for a drink their first night, and getting tickets to local music or event. I presumed this would mean with other people on the team...but seeing this person I know act like a cougar in heat, maybe I'm wrong.

Time to check her current phone.

Don't know what to do with all this.

Yes you do. You may be reluctant to open the box but you know it’s going to happen and you know however it turns out you will survive.

I honestly don't feel I can admit to snooping on an old phone without fallout.

Fuck that. You have just as much right to the truth about your marriage as she does. As a former BS she knows this to her core. Don’t put up with her crap for a second if she tries to blame shift or gaslight you on this.

I hate to say this Friend but you have at least a lot of smoke on your hands, possibly (no, instead certainly) even a fire. This is AT LEAST an EA. You need to talk to your WW ASAP about this...

This has to absolutely suck. I am so sorry to hear you are going through this BS again...

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:36 PM, Tuesday, August 26th]

I suppose most of the BSs on this site, including me, would say that they would never cheat.

I’m sure my WW would have been sure she would never cheat, be an adulteress, the other woman, a home wrecker, a side piece, right up until she was those things.

I think "there but for the grace of God go I."

Maybe I’ve never encountered the woman who would induce insanity in me.

And maybe, Jagged, as you have surmised, she has encountered that dreamy guy who’s going to dissolve her barriers. It sounds like she’s well on the way.

Talk to her. I don’t think you have to bring up the phone. Just the rest of it. If she resists, then you, and more importantly she, has the answer.

Best wishes.

[This message edited by Formerpeopleperson at 5:43 PM, Tuesday, August 26th]

This is an EA w/out a doubt.

Info is hidden 🚩

Possible meet ups were a secret 🚩

She’s not acting like herself 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

If there was nothing to this, she would say "hey on the next trip AP and I and a few others are thinking of going to a concert one night".

At the very least she’s lying by omission.

Trust is now broken.

So sorry for you.

I have to be honest, jagged, this broke my heart when I read it. I am so sad for you. So sad that people are like this. I am truly sorry that you are going through this.

I can only give you my advice, like everyone here, but I think your suspicions are correct, and I would entertain the worst ones. What bothers me the most here is I think, I suspect, what bothers you the most....that she seems to be an entirely differently person with him than THE ONE YOU KNOW. That is absolutely striking to me. I know a lot about phonies from different perspectives and people do have different personas - when I think someone is adopting "personas" for different people - whether you are seeing the genuine person or he is or if there is even another persona out there, the bottom line to me is that she is representing different aspects of herself to different people and the only reason to do this, to me, is to GET WHAT YOU WANT OUT OF THEM. Because of my background, things I've gone through, I always say, charming people are charming for a reason - because they want something out of you. She wanted something out of you so she behaves one way. She wants something out of him, so she behaves another way. Maybe that is the real her. Would you date or marry the woman she is revealing herself to be in those texts? Does that person appeal to you? My guess is....THAT is the real person. The one in the texts. She feels she can lower her guard around him, with you, she's the fake goody goody.

This is what "I" would do. In general, I do not believe in being honest with a deceitful person (and again, I come from a bad background so this is self protective stuff). If this were me, I would hold my tongue, keep collecting evidence in secret, including from the current phone or computer - also be aware of apps she may be using like What's App. Personally I would talk to a lawyer about.....divorce. It's hard to stay married to someone of this level of deception where the basic personality is something else, not just the behavior. I would discuss divorce with an attorney at this point, and I would get a PI. If you can possibly afford it, a PI probably will help with a lot of your questions, provide information and evidence and possibly be a witness. You need to have enough to be able to decide to stay or go. Personally, I am sorry, I would get ready to go.

DON'T TALK TO HER OR DISCUSS ANY OF THIS OR LET ON THAT YOU KNOW ANYTHING. You'll have to play act too. If you have to talk, don't do it to her - DON'T DON'T DON'T. It will put her on alert, she will lie to you, and she will go further underground with her behavior. As you now know she has a persona different from anything you've seen, you don't know what else you don't know and this guy may not be the first. Get an STD test too. Again...DO NOT TALK TO HER ABOUT ANY OF THIS - talk to professional and collect evidence on the sly and get used to the idea of divorce. You can't stay happily married or trust someone who has personas.

Most of the people here are normal people which is why they suggest normal things like talking it out. I am not a normal person. My husband says I think like a criminal, and he's right. That's why I can give you this kind of advice. I understand deceitful, mentally ill people because I was raised by them and I've seen it throughout my life. Don't treat your wife like a normal person anymore. She's not, normal people don't act like this. I'm not talking about the cheating - I'm talking about the different personality you've observed.

Again, this really hurts me in a real way, I am deeply sorry you are going through this but I have to be honest, I think it's best to take the short pain than the long one. View her as a potential enemy you have to keep at a distance. DON'T TALK TO HER ABOUT THIS. Do the research, get the support of professionals and if you need to talk, talk to a counselor - NOT a marriage counselor of course, and try not to talk to anyone who might mention anything to her. You have to make her think everything is okay. If she notices a difference in you, chalk it up to work, health, over tired, etc.

Personally if this were me, this IS what I would personally be doing and I'd be considering divorce. This would creep the crap out of me and I'd never really know who I was dealing with and you can't go through life like this. You've seen a side of her that is real and that she hides from you. Don't trust her again, someone like this is too damaged, too messed up for you to fix.

And yes, I do think she either wants to cheat with him physically, if HE is willing to do that (he might have a lot of choices in his life and she may not be the one he picks) but the kind of language she is using, she's clearly expressing, and I think, welcoming, sexual interest. Please talk to a lawyer, an IC, a PI if you can, collect the data, because....you're not going to be able to fix this. She's a good liar.

[This message edited by BondJaneBond at 7:41 PM, Tuesday, August 26th]

And maybe, Jagged, as you have surmised, she has encountered that dreamy guy who’s going to dissolve her barriers. It sounds like she’s well on the way.

From what he's described his WW doesn't have barriers with this co-worker. If it hasn't progressed with to a full PA, that's only because those desires weren't reciprocated by her co-worker. See Below.

I was reading texts from someone I positively didn't recognize -- not the sweet, affirming, positive woman who uplifts others, rarely curses, and is never overfamiliar with men...no, with this guy, back and forth, it was f-bombs every other sentence, disparaging and joking about the appearance and intelligence of other colleagues and clients, and bitching about periodically being out of patience all people in her life (and teasing him that as her work BFF< he had to listen to it). And there was more: comments about how female clients must all swoon over him, how the team shirts they ordered were too small for everyone but he needs to wear his to "give the girls what they want", and persistent sexual innuendo introduced almost exclusively by her.

Jagged You do have a problem. You don't know the woman she was around him. Now are wondering which woman is reality. Or at least closer to it.

Don't know what to do with all this. I honestly don't feel I can admit to snooping on an old phone without fallout. Normally, I'd be confident she would ultimately understand that I acted on the same suspicions we've both buried deep in our pasts.

There should be fallout. If you hadn't found anything, maybe the fallout would have been directly at you. You were driven to verify by her off behavior about him. You found evidence your wife actively chasing a co-worker. That she was having sexual conversations with that man. She was diverting time from you to going to spend it sexting and connecting with him. Marriage shouldn't have secrets like this.

I'd copy all the incriminating text off the old phone then pin her down about him. Either check her new phone or ask to see it. You have no idea what has happened in the six months since, but you know now she was crossing boundaries willingly in the last year and a half that she was using her old phone. I would give even odds that they hooked up unless he had better options at the national meeting.

[This message edited by grubs at 7:43 PM, Tuesday, August 26th]

Reading this just sent me back three years to when I spent two months snooping because I was certain something was off. What I found also felt like I was observing a stranger. Every day from that point on until the reveal was painful. I was constantly in a state of paranoia. I got so good at researching new ways to check on her that I wouldn't have thought of.

Definitely do your best to get your hands on her phone. It might not be today, it might take a few days before it's nonchalantly left laying around. If it's passcode locked, pay close attention to her when she's putting the code in if at all possible. Start planning out what you're going to look for and in what order, because you don't know how much time you'll get. Also prepare for how you'll document. I used my phone to record a video of her phone screen as I scrolled through the messages. Then I could take screenshot stills from that video later.

I truly appreciate the responses here. So much terrible and hard-won wisdom. I'm just still reeling and feeling doubly betrayed by someone who has always been so aware, so BEYOND this, I imagined.

I absolutely subscribe to the "there but for the grace..." school of thinking. I don't truly believe anyone is beyond anything, and I suppose it hurts more because knows firsthand the pain she would inflict, knows I've suffered like she has...and did it anyway. And still is, I must assume. No, I've never thought I was beyond anything - I just don't orchestrate situations where I need to find out. It's truly not that fucking hard.

Who knows what's happened in the interim. I know everyone says this, but for a number of practical reasons, I know they're not hooking up regularly. Or even infrequently. We have always shared locations with each other and I am always aware, if not checking, where she is. And he lives six hours away, and she only travels locally. Did they hook up at one of their meetings? Never would rule it out. Frankly I'm just as bothered by the fact that she set a perfect stage for it, flirting and fawning over a studly former D1 athlete who I am absolutely sure knows how to get a ripe target like her into the sack after a couple of drinks.

I'm still reeling from this, and I won't act immediately. I do need to see the new phone; that'll probably tell me everything I need to know, or whether by some miracle this thing has died down. Lol - because that happens. I HATE being this person again - the suspicious sleuth investigating someone I love the most. I truly hate it with all my being, and swore to myself I'd never do it again. The fact that she is the one to put me back here - I still can't really process.

Thank you SI.

What are your next steps, jagged? I understand that this really sucks, but you cannot afford to be passive here.

I HATE being this person again - the suspicious sleuth investigating someone I love the most. I truly hate it with all my being, and swore to myself I'd never do it again. The fact that she is the one to put me back here - I still can't really process.

You haven't been tracking your partner over the last 13 years. You're doing it because her behavior gave you reasons that made it necessary. Don't ever regret verifying your gut reactions. If your partner was who you believed she was all along, you would have found nothing and moved on with life without a blip. But you know now, your partner has been hitting on a coworker. Engaging in sexual flirting and creating opportunities to spend time with him out of town. There's no denying that.

Long term relationships shouldn't have major secrets and the actions you discovered that she did are a major secret. You wouldn't have entered into this relationship if you knew she was capable of what you already know she did. Those actions are not done by "a wonderful, kind, emotionally healthy, caring and supportive woman" regardless of her being a BS. If anything, it makes her worse for knowing the pain her actions would lead to if discovered.

I see you have four major options going forward.
1. Confront immediately. She will argue it wasn't as bad as it is. That it wasn't the emotional affair (at least) that it is.
2. Forget it since there isn't undeniable proof of a physical affair.
3. Rug Sweep and move on.
4. Gather more data.

I'd recommend 4. All of the others will leave major doubt in your mind about what exactly you are dealing with. Did she just let some harmless banter get out of hand or was she really seeking an full blown affair that her texts appear to show.

The hardest reality I had to accept was the fact that no relationship is immune from an affair. Bad relationships, good relationships, great relationships, are all susceptible when the right guy or girl comes along.

When my wife took this job in the school she said I will not be able to send the types of messages that you like and I said that's understandable. Imagine my shock when I learned she could, and happily did so, with a married coworker who was 9 years younger than her and 13 years younger than me.

I will never ever again foolishly believe that my wife will not have an affair. This does put up a bit of a roadblock in our relationship but I will never give 100% of my trust to her or to any other woman for that matter

Jagged, I would ask your wife if you can see her phone. If both people are open and honest she should simply pull it out of her pocket and hand it to you and not ask why. If she asks why or if she refuses then you have your answers

But first you have to copy what you found on the old phone. Their relationship has had six months to progress and there is definitely an affair going on. Is it physical, only she knows, but if she refuses to hand over her phone then I would assume so.

I used to think that if my wife and I were to split up I would look for somebody who has been on the Betrayed side but I realized it doesn't matter. Too many people will simply grab opportunity when it presents itself

Sorry you find yourself in this position and all of us can understand how much it hurts. But you do need to address this head on immediately. Waiting will only be torture for you

Jagged,

Maybe the two of you can recover from where this is now.

If you let it run, it’s going to get much worse, and become something that maybe neither of you can recover from. Ever.

Best wishes.

Totally agree with 1St wife that this is an EA without a doubt.

A big problem with EA’s is that not everyone recognizes them as an issue. That actually also includes a lot of therapists. It could be possible that for your wife this is only a friendship, however inappropriate it might actually be.

I think you need to confront this. I think you should build on one thing you have in common: You are both betrayed spouses. If anything, that should help her understand why you might have concerns. If those concerns are unfounded she can help with assurance. Or she can maybe open her eyes and realize that although for her it’s just a friendship then for the marriage it’s a threat.

What I would do is (probably) this:
Tell your wife that you are concerned. Remind her of your mutual backgrounds. Remind her about how she felt when she suspected her ex of cheating, refer to your own experience. Don’t insist she is cheating, but rather focus on that her actions are causing you concern.
Have the book Not Just Friends at hand. Ask her that she take your concerns seriously, and that you two should read through that book over the next couple of evenings and apply it’s principles to this "friendship". Tell her that if she can convince you this is only that – a friendship – then you will work on your worries. But that if she realizes and understands what this secrecy and closeness can do to YOUR relationship then she can take steps to fix it.

Evaluate her response to this request. As a former BS she should understand. As a present (or soon-to-be) WS... it could be met with derision, denial and/or anger.

I agree with bigger, confront now. I would copy the phone messages in case this goes really bad.
The Not Just Friends book is a good read to remind both how easy it is for a friendship to become an EA or more.

Every WS has to give themselves permission to cheat which is almost always some sort of hoop or loophole they make for themself until they can't deny it anymore then dive off the cliff.

I'm special and can have this relationship without it getting inappropriate...

This emotional investment isn't cheating because it isn't physical...

This physical action isn't cheating because it isn't PIV sex...

Well I guess I've cheated now, so there is no point in holding back, I have to keep it a secret.