SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Mr20Paws,

I thank you for your perspectives and guidance and I am happy for you that you were able to use your faith as well as other tools to find your path through this mess. That is awesome and I would never wish to be seen as trying to diminish its importance.

However, for me, my only hope of surviving and thriving was to walk away. I did not leave my faith because of my wife’s affairs. (But they did make it easier to do.) I have never regretted that decision nor have I ever looked back. Please understand that I’m not talking about your faith but my faith as I understood. I was taught to test the fruits of the spirit, and when I did, it proved to be false in its teachings and promises.

My hope is that this difference between us doesn’t become an insurmountable wall between us. I have no discomfort with other’s faith. Typically they have deep discomfort with my disbelief.

Asterisk

I maintain that setting her down and demanding my right to participate would be counter productive and, it is my belief, I do not have the right to do so.

As noted before, if you’re good — and think you will heal up without talking about things that may still hurt — then go with that.

However, every person in an M, especially one hurt by the other, has the RIGHT to address pain caused by the other as needed.

You are working on your perception of the past, and focusing on the now. It is just plain tougher to do that solo, when it sounds like (at key times) your teammate is watching from the sidelines.

My take is only based on what worked for me at Oldwounds HQ.

Ultimately, I don’t have enough information to know if you’re being helped enough by your wife to get as healed as you need.

OldWounds,

However, every person in an M, especially one hurt by the other, has the RIGHT to address pain caused by the other as needed.

I would be in error trying to argue against your statement here. The issue to me is that my wife has her rights as well and when two rights slams into each other then the person that says "no" always trumps the person that says "yes". As I see it, there is nothing fair about this collision of no verses yes, but to force a person to do anything not of their choosing is not the wises path to take.

That said, I had back then, and still do, the right to choose to leave. But I chose to stay after the D-days and I choose to stay now and navigate my own self, in my own way, around the "no" logjam and have come to peace with my wife’s way of managing her own changes in her own way. I have taken a lot of heat here for this position and I am lost as to why that seems so difficult for many here. I maintain that if she works through her issues in her style the changes will be more authentic and have better sticking power. She has her own agency as I do.

My position is that there may be better ways, more efficient ways to steer oneself through the dangerous curves of infidelity than I have done. But "best", "more efficient" is not the only way and not always, in every circumstance, the best, most efficient way.

Asterisk

Asterisk,

I have taken a lot of heat here for this position and I am lost as to why that seems so difficult for many here. I maintain that if she works through her issues in her style the changes will be more authentic and have better sticking power. She has her own agency as I do.

You’re not taking heat in my mind — people are asking for you to advocate for yourself.

You already know that your wife, who is supposed to keep you safe — willfully hurt you in the worst emotional way possible, TWICE.

She chose to do what she did.

You had no agency when other people are being added to your relationship without your knowledge!

If I ever choose to hurt someone, and it hasn’t happened much in my life, I own my choices, I make amends.

Balance is broken and to restore that balance, you should be able to ask anything you require to heal.

Pretty clear, you’re not happy and healed, or you wouldn’t be wrestling with it so much in the present day.

You are putting the weight of the M recovery on YOU, by suggesting you want to change your focus and perspective to keep her safe.

That’s what a good partner does, keeps their person safe.

You continue to hold up your end without wanting to disturb the person who chose to cause harm.

Maybe that’s the heat you may be feeling in reading people’s responses.

No balance can be restored if one person is doing more work than the other.

And we can only base that work on what you share, and I’ve not seen anything you have posted to suggest she is reaching out to help you through this. I don’t mean years ago, I mean today.

It could mean, she still has some shame around it, but that means, she has some healing left to do as well, which you could help her with, IF she lets you in.

My wife told me, she broke it, and she would take the lead to fix it.

Neither of us knew what it meant, but I loved the sentiment and the intent. It allowed me to give her room to heal too, and yet, I got to ask all the questions I needed. I can still ask questions about it if I want, I just don’t have the need anymore after 1.4 million answers. The key to the new balance is, I know I can ask for more help if I do need it.

All I am saying is, for a happier, healthier you, for a happier, healthier M, you should be COMFORTABLE asking for help about the A, you should be made to feel safe by the person who took that safety away.

I don’t see it as asking for her agency, you’re asking for more love and kindness — and empathy, as you tackle this stuff solo.

We all recover how we choose, and one last time, if you’re good fixing you and leaving your partner out of it, go with that.

I just feel like I wouldn’t be helpful if I didn’t point out WHY it is important BOTH people help heal the M.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 4:43 PM, Tuesday, March 24th]

OldWounds,

Pretty clear, you’re not happy and healed, or you wouldn’t be wrestling with it so much in the present day.

Everything you have written above this line I believe you are pretty spot on. I do feel the need to ask you to reconsider the above line.

I am very happy with my life and my wife. Being here should not imply otherwise. I mean, you are here and are you not happy? That is not meant to be snotty just to clarify.

I will concede that there are areas in my healing that need people, like yourself, to shed light on some of my blind spots. And I have appreciated every bit of information shared. I may push back on some of it but that doesn’t mean I don’t pay attention and have backoff when I could finally see where I either misunderstood what was said or that I was in error of my position.

It is guys and girls like yourself who do not give up on me that really helps to push my healing process. That all said, I am a happy man who is living and loving life with a happy wife, but I am aware that there is some happiness that I am missing out on. And that is why I am here.

No balance can be restored if one person is doing more work than the other.

This is the interesting part and why it is important to keep talking. My position is that my wife is doing equal work, only in a way that I don’t do it, nor understand how it works. Though I feel left out, it is my responsibility to honor her process as long as she is working at it. I won’t say it doesn’t cause me to suffer but that is for me to self-reflect and find peace. I do agree with you that if she were not doing anything the tables would be unbalanced, but I’ve not made that claim.

All I am saying is, for a happier, healthier you, for a happier, healthier M, you should be COMFORTABLE asking for help about the A, you should be made to feel safe by the person who took that safety away.

There are a lot of "shoulds here and I agree with everyone. However, that is not the puzzle I have been given to put back together. I had to find the pieces as they were, not as I thought they should be, and then figure out how to put them back together the best way I knew how.

We all recover how we choose, and one last time, if you’re good fixing you and leaving your partner out of it, go with that.
I just feel like I wouldn’t be helpful if I didn’t point out WHY it is important BOTH people help heal the M.

This is a very meaningful paragraph, and I do recognize and value your thoughts and suggestions. They have been enormously helpful to me and my process over the past 8 months. Never once have I felt unsupported. A little heat once in a while, but heat is a signal that I need to pay attention.

Asterisk

Hey Asterisk -

That all said, I am a happy man who is living and loving life with a happy wife, but I am aware that there is some happiness that I am missing out on. And that is why I am here.

My line came across as all-encompassing, and I didn’t mean it that way. I wasn’t trying to ignore the good stuff you have going.

The line was aiming at the last part — the happiness you are missing out on.

And this part:

I won’t say it doesn’t cause me to suffer but that is for me to self-reflect and find peace.

It is the suffering part that hits me in the emotion of your posts.

I think we’ve all done plenty of that, and there is so many more things out there that will cause us more before we leave this life.

I think my reward for the hard work of R is that my M and my wife are the one place (once again) where I can go to NOT suffer.

Not to sound like the 60’s, but I like peace, love and understanding when I need it most from my relationship.

Anyway, I’m not going to beat on any dead horses, or live ones either!

My recap is simply: I wish your wife offered more empathy today than what you’ve described. I think that would ease the suffering part.

...I feel left out...

Of course you do. You are, in deed, being left out, just as you were left out during both of her affairs.

You are the only betrayed spouse I've encountered on this site who is insistent that one can reconcile alone. Every other betrayed spouse who has reconciled with their wayward spouse has been able, as much as humanly possible, to understand why their spouse became wayward and how they have owned and fixed their shit.

Throughout your entire journey here on SI, this singular theme stands out above all of the other issues with which you struggle.

Living in the present, being mindful of today, is all fine and dandy. Learning new coping mechanisms is good stuff, as is continuing to heal.

It's not enough. And I think deep down inside you know this to be true. I cannot comprehend how someone like you can be content with such a profoundly superficial relationship. It makes me wonder if your wife is deliberately holding back some terribly disturbing truths and whether or not you're afraid of what you might find out if she were willing to bare her soul. It's not at all impossible that she is resolved to take some dark secrets to her grave.

Of course, I could be wrong. It's possible, I suppose, that she's uncommonly shallow or simply incapable of being sufficiently articulate. I find that difficult to believe, but, of course, I don’t know her like you do.

Asterisk.....I think you're a much nicer guy than she deserves, and you need to stop being harsh on yourself. I feel that you are. I think it was ME that gave you that quote about change, I seem to recall it. Let me give you another facet of it.....each of us has particular weaknesses in life - mind, body, character, whatever. Aside from potato chips and chocolate, my main weakness might be my quick temper and sharp tongue. I think people can see that here, lol. I have a lot of positives too - I think most of us are a mix of things. One of my husband's weaknesses, perhaps his main one, is a need for external validation....that's what led him to seeking that from other women, generally on-line. He wants to be praised, admired, seen as special. I'm not like that, I don't give a shit what other people think of me. I really don't. I don't have a problem with external validation....but he does. So that's his weakness and under stress and feeling bad about himself, he looks for it from other people. I'm not enough, one person probably could never be enough when YOU don't feel you're enough.

So what I'm saying, probably badly, is that we have to allow for some weakness in other people, including spouses that's gonna break out from time to time, hopefully not in catastrophic ways but when the stars align and temptation is available, they weaken and do these bad things. They can try to work on themselves hopefully, as I have tried to work on my temper but sometimes we fail. I think perhaps the major issue is, can we live with that failure as the other partner. As often, perhaps usually, we can't. Some things are too hurtful or too deep or too destructive to overcome and stay with someone. And that's okay too. Unless we're talking about really evil behavior, and sometimes that does happen, there are mustache twirling villains out there, there is not right or wrong answer, it comes down to what we want, and what we are able to live with. Not forgive but accept that this person has these flaws and it happened and it could happen again.

Stop blaming yourself, I kind of think you're brooding over this and maybe it's not helpful for you. If I"m right, what is the essence of your brooding if you can boil it down? Is it upset about what already happened, which is fine, you are entitled to that and you can act on it - it's what do YOU want - or is it fear of what might happen? Well, she does have this weakness, she did it before. I can still throw a vase with the best of them. What do you want out of a relationship and can this work for you or has it been spoiled irreparably or do you want something else or what. There's a wise woman out there I can't mention here but her main question always is: IS THIS RELATIONSHIP ACCEPTABLE TO YOU? And that's become something of a mantra to me.

You'll figure it out....and if you don't, there's a lot of women out there who probably would love you, LOLOL!

OldWounds,

My recap is simply: I wish your wife offered more empathy today than what you’ve described. I think that would ease the suffering part.

I fear that in my speaking from a point of anguish I have done my wife an injustice. Which explains why you (and others) struggle with her and her methods. My wife does have deep empathy for me, and she knows full well that her actions are the original cause of my suffering. And I know that she has attempted to make amends and make the necessary changes to a flawed character, born from a family of origin dysfunction that she as a child had no control over. I admire her for what she has accomplished, and I refuse to let my pain, or other’s pain, diminish her or her work because her success was achieved in a way I, or others, do not understand.

I’m with you. Let’s consider this horse fully beaten to death. 😊

Asterisk

Unhinged,

Of course you do. You are, in deed, being left out, just as you were left out during both of her affairs.

Duly noted.

You are the only betrayed spouse I've encountered on this site who is insistent that one can reconcile alone.

So, on this you are saying that I am also "alone". I wonder if that is accurate or that others of this ilk have been silenced?

…. Every other betrayed spouse who has reconciled with their wayward spouse has been able, as much as humanly possible, to understand why their spouse became wayward and how they have owned and fixed their shit.

Have they? And just because they have, does that mean I can’t get there as well by a different route?

Living in the present, being mindful of today, is all fine and dandy. Learning new coping mechanisms is good stuff, as is continuing to heal.
It's not enough.

"It is not enough" I’m not sure this is true. However, I will grant that I’m newly trying out these tools, and I may find I need to discard them or seek other’s help in how best to use them. Will you grant me the time?

And I think deep down inside you know this to be true.

I am glad that you said "I think" for it gives room for you to be wrong. I do not know the full truth of any of this. Deep down, I only have my perspectives which are based on partial truths concerning my wife’s affairs, and why she did them, how she is dealing with it, and how I am to heal from it. My job is not to control the narrative but to keep a perspective not born from pain.

I cannot comprehend how someone like you can be content with such a profoundly superficial relationship.

Yes, exactly my dilemma. I do not comprehend how my wife could risk everything, family, husband, employment, standing in her church community and her self-respect. I am as baffled about her as you are about me. It is frustrating isn’t it. So, are you going to give up on me or hang in there and help me when you can while I work through this the best I know how? This is the same question that I asked myself 33 years ago. I chose to hang in there, others have made an equally wise decision to walk away. Side note: Our marriage is not, at any level, "profoundly superficial" if it were, I or she, would have left long ago. We both recognize how profound and fortunate we both are to have this relationship as it is now, in this moment. You know, "dandy" stuff like that.

It makes me wonder if your wife is deliberately holding back some terribly disturbing truths and whether or not you're afraid of what you might find out if she were willing to bare her soul. It's not at all impossible that she is resolved to take some dark secrets to her grave.

Ah, yes. This is very wise and possibly true. Probably better than 50% chance of being true. I will fully grant that the odds are in your favor. If she is, I doubt she is unique. But that is not my issue to work through. That is her battle to fight not mine. I will state that if I were "afraid" or maybe better meant a "coward" I would not be here on this site, battling my way through this. I’d be hunkered down giving no exposure to her, you, or anyone! If I were afraid, I would have run, not stayed in the fight. My decision is not about fear it is about honoring the rights of another human being.

Of course, I could be wrong. It's possible, I suppose, that she's uncommonly shallow or simply incapable of being sufficiently articulate. I find that difficult to believe, but, of course, I don’t know her like you do.

On this we do agree. You do not know my wife. And yet, you state that she is "shallow", "incapable", "profoundly superficial". These are strong conclusions from someone who does not know my wife. On the other hand, you are working with the information that I have shared and so your thoughts and conclusions are not without cause.

Asterisk

BondJaneBond,

I think it was ME that gave you that quote

Yes, that is your voice that gave me pause.

...my main weakness might be my quick temper and sharp tongue.

Yeppers, I have felt that sharp tongue of which you speak. 😉However, I would suggest that it is also your strength. I admire it.

Stop blaming yourself, I kind of think you're brooding over this and maybe it's not helpful for you.

"Brooding" that is a term I have never had anyone suggest I am doing and I’m old. I’m interested in what are examples of what you see in me that is brooding. Blaming myself, now that I can understand why someone might suggest that. I don’t see it that way, but I understand why others might. And I should be open to recognizing that possibly I am blind to my self-blaming behavior. How I see it is that I am responsible for reviewing my actions and reactions to any and all situations. To ferret out when I have made bad decisions or acted incorrectly. That is not self-blaming. That is self-examination. Self-blaming creates shame whereas self-examination creates change.

If I"m right, what is the essence of your brooding if you can boil it down?

Here’s that word brooding again. So I need to examine it. I went to the dictionary to get a neutral voice as to the meaning of "broading". And here it is: "preoccupied with depressing, morbid, or painful memories or thoughts."

I’m glad I did because that was not how I understood the word. There are moments in time, such as what started again 8 months ago, landing me here, of recalling painful memories or thoughts. So yes, you are correct. But please understand that the past 33 years (43 years) have not been lived in this state. That all said, I am know to you as I have presented myself, so that is what there is to work with.

...is it fear of what might happen?

No, I have no fear that it might happen again. It might, but I no longer carry fear if it were to happen again. I’m wiser and more confident of my own ability for I am experienced in this journey.

What do you want out of a relationship and can this work for you or has it been spoiled irreparably or do you want something else or what.

This is the ultimate question isn’t it? When I stay in this moment and see and treat my wife as she is now, I have what I want. The only time it is not working for me is when "I" return to the past as it was then. And that is why I am responsible for my current pain. No, it has not been spoiled irreparably. Do I want something else is another great question. Yes, I do. But not from my wife. I want something else from me and that something is still being sought out. Does that mean I want something other than my wife. No. I say that knowing that I could have something wonderful with another woman, one where there is no past, but that is, in of itself, problematic. What I want from my wife is her authentic self, not the injured girl she was when I married her. From past talks with you I believe we have agreed that we differ as to the ability of a person to make permanent changes to their flawed selves.

IS THIS RELATIONSHIP ACCEPTABLE TO YOU? And that's become something of a mantra to me.

That is a great mantra. Yes, without reservation, I can firmly state that my relationship with my wife is acceptable to me. More than acceptable!

Thank you BondJaneBond, for your thoughts and questions.

Asterisk

So, are you going to give up on me or hang in there and help me when you can while I work through this the best I know how?

Not a chance, brother.

Now, if you asked this question of your wife, what would be her answer?

...does that mean I can’t get there as well by a different route?

Perhaps I wrote in absolutes about the "right" way to go about reconciliation. I'm sure there's a margin of error in there somewhere. However, from my experiences on this site, it seems rather clear that there is a right way to go about R. It's why I joined SI in the first place - to learn if reconciliation is possible and, if so, how to go about it.

Can you get there by a different route? Well, you are the answer to your own question. For over 30 years you've tried this different route and it's clearly not working out as well as you'd hoped.

Do I think people with different perspectives and approaches have been silenced? No, I do not. And I certainly hope that you do not feel silenced.

I apologize for the harsh words concerning your wife. I simply find it disconcerting and baffling that she is unwilling to go the distance for you. IMHO, it's extremely unfair and catagorically wrong. The error is not yours, but hers.

I don't know if you've been following feelingverylow's story. He had an affair many years ago and only recently disclosed it to his wife. That man is doing everything he can possibly do to explain it all to her and help her to recover and heal. It's why I pay attention to him and offer whatever help and insight I'm able to provide.

If I had the same opportunity to interact with your wife I'd tell her flat out that she's as wrong as wrong could possibly be.

Unhinged,

So, are you going to give up on me or hang in there and help me when you can while I work through this the best I know how?
Not a chance, brother. You have proven to be a constant source of support.
Now, if you asked this question of your wife, what would be her answer?

Thanks for not giving up on me and for your guidance as I navigate this territory.

As to your question, I think it was in reference to the one above and not the one that was below. If I were to answer this from the perspective, had she given up on me and the marriage and that is one of the reasons why she was able to allow herself to cheat, the answer would be, I believe she did. I’m not sure she would be so absolute about her answer. I understood her to say she was desperate and didn’t know what to do or what her options were.

Now, if you are asking "has she given up on me sense D-day". No. Not even in my/her/our worst moments. We have held each other close and have allowed each other their time and processes.

Can you get there by a different route? Well, you are the answer to your own question. For over 30 years you've tried this different route and it's clearly not working out as well as you'd hoped.

Okay, this is a great place for possible misunderstanding of my situation. Please let me clarify. I have not been suffering for the entire 43 years span. I had believed that I had come to a full recovery. My life and my time spent with my wife was wonderful, full of love, compassion, and passion. Then two events, totally unrelated to our affair issues rose up at the same time and I made an unnecessary connection and crashed in June of last year. This is when I came to the conclusion and I maintain that it is more true than not, that reconciliation isn’t something that is guaranteed to hold. It can be lost in a flash, years, decades, nearly a lifetime later. That will be my drum beat warning to others from now until my voice is unable to speak.

Now, for the clarification part. You said, "For over 30 years you’ve tried this different route and it’s clearly not working out as well as you’d hope." Which I take to mean that my method wasn’t working and therefore invalid. And that is not a wrong conclusion if your premise was correct. I agree my method wasn’t working out. It worked dang well for decades but then failed me in the end. And that is why I am here. What you left out is that you are frustrated with me using new ideas that I have learned here. Such as the dandy stuff of "being in the moment" and "mindfulness". I’m sharing some success in using these "new" techniques in hopes that my success at reducing the deep pain I was in would be of benefit to someone else. But I feel as if, by some, I’m being kept in a box, the box in which I arrived in.

I came here "because" I knew, as you point out, that what I had been doing was now failing me. I arrived here open to new approaches, new concepts and you along with others have assisted me.

However, I did not come here to get permission to beat up on my wife. Or to give permission for others to do so. That permission might be needed in the early years but, as I have said before, it is not necessary or ever healthy for me to go down that path. It has been well traveled.

I will rarely state that I am clear eyed on something this difficult to navigate. But I will when I say I came here knowing, without hesitation, that the current suffering I was in was of my own making. Did my wife create the original suffering? Yes, no doubt in my mind. But at this point the onus falls on me alone to find healing without my wife’s participation. (As you have stated, I am the only guy here that feels that way, and you may be right that I am for no one has joined my voice. But that does not mean I am wrong, just different.

Do I think people with different perspectives and approaches have been silenced? No, I do not. And I certainly hope that you do not feel silenced.

I think it is easy for people who are comfortable with disagreements to not see when we silence people. Or not notice when they feel not heard and so, without a word, disappear. For instance there was a man (lowtide) who was struggling deeply with his wife’s affair. He got hammered, a little by me, for not being willing to see divorce as an option. He was differently clear, that for him, his vows, were permanent and that he would not even consider devoice. His position is that his wife cheated because of a mental illness and from that perspective he had vowed to stay true through "sickness and health". And he got blasted for taking that stand. He and I were PMing during this time, and I came to the conclusion that I would work within his framework not mine. But the pressure on the open site was so intense that one day, he disappeared without a word. Broke my heart. I learned something from his experience, and I have adjusted my approach every sense for it was too easy for me to allow my dogmas to over shadow his needs.

I apologize for the harsh words concerning your wife. I simply find it disconcerting and baffling that she is unwilling to go the distance for you. IMHO, it's extremely unfair and catagorically wrong. The error is not yours, but hers.

Thank you. I know you are only trying to reason with me to advance my progress. But it is hard to listen when one speaks what I feel is not only harsh but cruel and all encompassing. My wife is not the subtotal of her actions decades ago. I do expect and support anyone who says she was fully at fault for the direction she chose. Or that it was an extremely selfish, hurtful, and careless thing to do. That is all true. It is statement about a person’s actions not about the person as they are at some given moment in time. A person is more than their worst moment in time. So yes, "the error is not mine, but hers." This is true. But I am responsible for my error which was 8 months ago, not hers.

I don't know if you've been following feelingverylow's story.

I followed him when I think he 1st arrived. He seemed to be a wayward who was really putting in the effort in a way that will most likely be successful. (If his spouse allows it.) I admired the many post he had made and the responses to them. I will admit, I have been remiss in keeping up with his progress. I’ll remedy that issue.

If I had the same opportunity to interact with your wife I'd tell her flat out that she's as wrong as wrong could possibly be.

On that….I have little doubt that you would. But I will say, I think if you met my wife and gave her a breath of a chance, you’d come to understand that she is wonderful, kind, thoughtful woman who, in a time of her life of silent desperation, panicked and did a terrible, but forgivable thing.

Asterisk